Can Ukabila end in Kenya?

[dimba2]

Can we be able to tame tribalism or minimise it to local level only?

How if we try

1) If people are forced to use only religious or neutral names such as

Mwizi Mzuri

Binti Vista

John Kuku Tatu and so on


No speaking kwa lugha ya mama in educational institution and work places.

This is the only way to go.

[Terminator]

Culture does not equate to tribalism. The people are not killing each other because they think their victims have funny sounding last names. In Kenya its very simple. Instead of asking people to change who they are, the government, especially the President simply needs to stop practising it. Tanzania did it in the 60's. Kenya might not do in a hundred years.

[fixit]

Blatant Tribalism rears its very ugly head when it comes to elections. Tribalism can suffer some setback for a start if the kyuks like me embrace a candidate from another region wholeheartedly. In the same vein candidates from regions beyond Mt Kenya should not expect us to support them just because they aint one of us.

[Former (kenyan)]

fix it, that is a myth.
Ati agikuyu like you embracing a candidate from another tribe will stem tribalism..?? na kadhalika..
Nani alikudanganya hiyo maneno??
Do you know how many tribes are there in Kenya?
As Termie has stated hapo juu, people do not chop each other's heads because you make funny sounds when asking or giving.....The question is how can the Kenyan law be empowered to deal with criminals posing as leaders, mobilizing masses on the tribal crappy card...

[Elephant Castle]

Dimba,

Tribalism is a socialization (Social engireeering Problem). what we need in Kenya is a massive effort to re-educate and help reduce ignorance that has been fed to our people over years. Mzalend Kibunja should roll out civic education across the country and the place to start is schools and colleges. It is evident that in most middle crass families there is less tribalism. because education is the key to fight any type of ism.

The other thing we need a strong Law like the Civil rights act of 1964 that will outlaw any form of tribalism practiced in kenya in Areas of Employment, social gatherings, etc etc. The law must be enforced without fear or favor. right now the biggest threat to existence of Kenya is RAW tribalism and Uncessary power struggle by Use of Tribalism as the bait. If tribalism is not checked I predict in 10 years of so the Will be genocide in kenya and it will start in RV and it will be massive and wide spread.

watu wanafikiria hii ongoing vuta ni kuvute siasa is musical chairs. wait until on Fool strikes a match in this tinderbox. 2007 and 200 PEV will be a comma in the history of mayhem of kenya

[Terminator]

Yep. Much like racism. And it does not matter where one grew up, whether in shags or the city, poor or rich. Its how one is socialized to view people of different cultures. The most ardent practitioners of ukabila other than politicians normally are dealing with big issues related to self-worth.

Dimba,

Tribalism is a socialization (Social engireeering Problem). what we need in Kenya is a massive effort to re-educate and help reduce ignorance that has been fed to our people over years. Mzalend Kibunja should roll out civic education across the country and the place to start is schools and colleges. It is evident that in most middle crass families there is less tribalism. because education is the key to fight any type of ism.

The other thing we need a strong Law like the Civil rights act of 1964 that will outlaw any form of tribalism practiced in kenya in Areas of Employment, social gatherings, etc etc. The law must be enforced without fear or favor. right now the biggest threat to existence of Kenya is RAW tribalism and Uncessary power struggle by Use of Tribalism as the bait. If tribalism is not checked I predict in 10 years of so the Will be genocide in kenya and it will start in RV and it will be massive and wide spread.

watu wanafikiria hii ongoing vuta ni kuvute siasa is musical chairs. wait until on Fool strikes a match in this tinderbox. 2007 and 200 PEV will be a comma in the history of mayhem of kenya

[D.E.A.R]

Dimba,

Tribalism is a socialization (Social engireeering Problem). what we need in Kenya is a massive effort to re-educate and help reduce ignorance that has been fed to our people over years. Mzalend Kibunja should roll out civic education across the country and the place to start is schools and colleges. It is evident that in most middle crass families there is less tribalism. because education is the key to fight any type of ism.

NO! You can't "socially engineer" (whatever that means) ukabila. And there is nothing wrong with tribalism per se. Some people are just too obsessed with social homogeneity; there is value in diversity. We should not be forced to think and act in conformity to some abstract constructs of an ideal society. What is required are ways to harness the benefits of diversity and institute severe sanctions on those abusing it.

[Elephant Castle]

so what you are telling me is that you cannot socialize Kids or society to be tribalist? tribalism 'negative' aspect of it is what we are talking of here not the tribalism of tribal identity that is necessary for Diversity. we not talking of GEMA muratina drinking, goat roasting or Ker as the custodian of luo customs we are looking at the aspect that "you have not to be so that I can be"

[D.E.A.R]

so what you are telling me is that you cannot socialize Kids or society to be tribalist? tribalism 'negative' aspect of it is what we are talking of here not the tribalism of tribal identity that is necessary for Diversity. we not talking of GEMA muratina drinking, goat roasting or Ker as the custodian of luo customs we are looking at the aspect that "you have not to be so that I can be"

Do you think Kenyans who grew up in cosmopolitan areas or went to National or ethnically-diverse schools are less tribal? Universities and post-secondary colleges for long were ethnically diverse, do you think their graduates are less tribal? Have you met the same Kenyans in America or Britania? How do they behave? Shouldn't we expect the USA/UK etc to have "socially engineered" them to less tribalism?

[Elephant Castle]

so what you are telling me is that you cannot socialize Kids or society to be tribalist? tribalism 'negative' aspect of it is what we are talking of here not the tribalism of tribal identity that is necessary for Diversity. we not talking of GEMA muratina drinking, goat roasting or Ker as the custodian of luo customs we are looking at the aspect that "you have not to be so that I can be"

Do you think Kenyans who grew up in cosmopolitan areas or went to National or ethnically-diverse schools are less tribal? Universities and post-secondary colleges for long were ethnically diverse, do you think their graduates are less tribal? Have you met the same Kenyans in America or Britania? How do they behave? Shouldn't we expect the USA/UK etc to have "socially engineered" them to less tribalism?

There are those that grew up in middle crass in urban areas they tend to be torelant but whenever they are removed from this enviroment they tend to start looking inwards and they become less torelant because for once they discover this ugly side of them at an advanced age. it is like a black kid who sheltered reading about Slavery or black nationalism he/she will need a lot of guidance to be able to navigate this

the socialization of Kenyans Adults in the Urban areas is very superficial and once the door is closed the ugly "tribal chauvinism rears it head" this where parent come into play by guiding them

[Terminator]

It depends. There are Kenyans who grew up in Nairobi but their entire socialization is based around their tribesmen. Its inculcated in them from an early age that people are fundamentally different because of their tribe(this depends on the family really). Most who grew up in middle class areas as EC says tend to be fairly well integrated. The upper class elites may be socialized differently and could actually be more tribal or inward looking - Uhuru being a good case in point. It could be because in middle class estates like Langata, Hurlingham etc you grew up in an environment where it made sense to accept other people and was in fact difficult not to - again the parents make this choice. I never attached any significance(besides the fact that people could occasionally speak languages I did not understand) to tribe and race growing up until I went to the Rift Valley to boarding school.

so what you are telling me is that you cannot socialize Kids or society to be tribalist? tribalism 'negative' aspect of it is what we are talking of here not the tribalism of tribal identity that is necessary for Diversity. we not talking of GEMA muratina drinking, goat roasting or Ker as the custodian of luo customs we are looking at the aspect that "you have not to be so that I can be"

Do you think Kenyans who grew up in cosmopolitan areas or went to National or ethnically-diverse schools are less tribal? Universities and post-secondary colleges for long were ethnically diverse, do you think their graduates are less tribal? Have you met the same Kenyans in America or Britania? How do they behave? Shouldn't we expect the USA/UK etc to have "socially engineered" them to less tribalism?

[dimba2]

Did,t mean to run away from the thread, I was asking around on the best way to minimise negative tribalims.

I think the answer can be found in creating laws and enforcing them.

For instance any person who tries to drive a wage between two tribes by way of demonising his rival tribe through hate speech should face the full force of the law including being banned from holding public office.


Recruitment methods should also be looked at so we do not have politicians saying that his tribe is being finished.

It is such a complex thing but it can be solved by laws and enforcement.

[lilje Tumas]

Civil behavior is empowering behavior- since our tribal allegiances are inextricably interwoven with our power politic, we cannot negotiate equitable power balance without exercising civility. Certainly, the civil use of power is contigent upon a particlar situation and/or system say tribal affiliations, education level and exposure. It is true, too, that our families of origin to a great extent informs our behavior and thought processes - that is a reality.

We transcend this by recognizing and acknowledging that what we are one of the many threads in the fabric of our national identity.
In other words, consistent civility in the use of political power in relation to others requires a concious and timely excercise of the power to change what no longer works for the greater good.
Unmitigated tribalism = unconcious incivility.

[Dakdak]

Can we be able to tame tribalism or minimise it to local level only?

How if we try

1) If people are forced to use only religious or neutral names such as

Mwizi Mzuri

Binti Vista

John Kuku Tatu and so on


No speaking kwa lugha ya mama in educational institution and work places.

This is the only way to go.

Like racism in America and some parts in Europe, tribalism will never end in Kenya. We can pass laws, however, to bring it under control as Americans have done with racism. The journey to acceptance of blacks as human beings started in 1964 with passage of the Civil Rights laws there so we can say our journey to combat hate and tribalism started with Mzalendo's commission. We need more though. For example, it should be criminal offense to flagrantly discriminate against all tribes in favor of one tribe as Kibaki and other presidents before him have done.

[dekay]

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[Njamlik]

I saw a headline at Abeingo and immediately thought of this thread. The answer is NO, as long as 'leaders' reason this way:

Bukusu dump Kikuyu for Luo ahead of 2012 general elections
By Eric Ngobilo, Feb 13 2012
Ford Kenya party leaders over the weekend announced their intent to withdraw from the PNU alliance and forge a new one with ODM ahead of the General election. Party leader Moses Wetang’ula, Secretary General Dr. Eseli Simiyu and Cabinet Minister Noah Wekesa said the party will be in the coalition that will form the next government. They made the remarks at a rally in Bungoma that was attended by ODM MPs Ababu Namwamba and Fred Outa. Their remarks comes in the wake of a tour by Prime Minster Raila Odinga in the County. “We are strategizing on the formation of a coalition which will produce the next president of Kenya,” said Wekesa. “We have nothing to show our people for working with PNU. They have instead fought us and divided our leaders,” said Dr Eseli. “ODM and Ford Kenya are like conjoined twins who stand for the same principles. We are natural partners,” added Namwamba. The specifics of the alliance remain fuzzy however, with the Ford Kenya leaders insisting that the party will field contestants in all levels of the elections. Dr Eseli said the party had lost popularity over the years after failing to field candidates because of entering into coalitions and losing its identity. “We as Ford Kenya will be on the ballot whether we go into a collation or we go it alone,” said Dr Eseli. Assistant Minister Bifwoli Wakoli said he is comfortable working with ODM, although such an alliance must be in Ford Kenya's terms.

http://abeingo.org/HTML_files/news.html

These are grown men proudly announcing that they are leaving one tribe to support another, as if they do not have enough pride in themselves to make it, or principles that transcend their ethnicity. I will not mention the man who broke the big news here.

NJL

[Terminator]

Would putting this clip here induce the appropriate outrage? Perhaps not as long as it is wajaluo under attack; just a wild guess on my part.

Needless to say, the answer to the swaa nyeti of the thread can be found in that clip.

[Njamlik]

Would putting this clip here induce the appropriate outrage? Perhaps not as long as it is wajaluo under attack; just a wild guess on my part.

Needless to say, the answer to the swaa nyeti of the thread can be found in that clip.

Termie,

The ICC's warning was very clear and only addressed the two suspects. I did not see or hear anything on that clip that implicates Uhuru and Ruto. Is that your best shot?

NJL

P.s. Ferdinand Waititu almost repeats verbatim what UK told Ocampo in September, and it is all plausible. Who called for mass action and for whom did the arsonists and head-hunters scream "No Raila No Peace!"?

[Terminator]

The clip is intended to show the state of ukabila in Kenya and relevant to this thread. If you take off your blinkers, you might have something interesting to say about the gentleman at 0:41. The muthamaki case is in good hands; Kibunja's and Ocampo's; they have what they need.

Would putting this clip here induce the appropriate outrage? Perhaps not as long as it is wajaluo under attack; just a wild guess on my part.

Needless to say, the answer to the swaa nyeti of the thread can be found in that clip.

Termie,

The ICC's warning was very clear and only addressed the two suspects. I did not see or hear anything on that clip that implicates Uhuru and Ruto. Is that your best shot?

NJL

P.s. Ferdinand Waititu almost repeats verbatim what UK told Ocampo in September, and it is all plausible. Who called for mass action and for whom did the arsonists and head-hunters scream "No Raila No Peace!"?

[Njamlik]

The clip is intended to show the state of ukabila in Kenya and relevant to this thread. If you take off your blinkers, you might have something interesting to say about the gentleman at 0:41. The muthamaki case is in good hands; Kibunja's and Ocampo's; they have what they need.

Termie,

So what does the gentleman at 0.41 have to do with the two suspects whose arrest you have been longing for as long as I can remember? I have not forgotten how you gleefully (and naively) predicted that they would not be back in Kenya after their summons in March.

Justice should be fact-based and some of the facts include others not before the court. Kenyans have a right to mention that discrepancy.

NJL

[Terminator]

The gentleman at 0:41 is without mincing words asking Luos to shut up. Would that perhaps have something to do with the topic of this thread?

The clip is intended to show the state of ukabila in Kenya and relevant to this thread. If you take off your blinkers, you might have something interesting to say about the gentleman at 0:41. The muthamaki case is in good hands; Kibunja's and Ocampo's; they have what they need.

Termie,

So what does the gentleman at 0.41 have to do with the two suspects whose arrest you have been longing for as long as I can remember? I have not forgotten how you gleefully (and naively) predicted that they would not be back in Kenya after their summons in March.

Justice should be fact-based and some of the facts include others not before the court. Kenyans have a right to mention that discrepancy.

NJL

[Njamlik]

The gentleman at 0:41 is without mincing words asking Luos to shut up. Would that perhaps have something to do with the topic of this thread?

Termie,

Is Kibunja not on his case already? He needs to focus on that guy instead of 'indirectly responsible' figures the way Ocampo did.

NJL

[Terminator]

That gentleman was filmed by NTV. I don't know what else Kibunja has or if he is on the gentleman's case. I just thought that with leaders like this, ukabila has a very promising future in Kenya. I thought it might also elicit similar outrage, if not more, than that "very offending" headline from abeingo.

The gentleman at 0:41 is without mincing words asking Luos to shut up. Would that perhaps have something to do with the topic of this thread?

Termie,

Is Kibunja not on his case already? He needs to focus on that guy instead of 'indirectly responsible' figures the way Ocampo did.

NJL

[Njamlik]

That gentleman was filmed by NTV. I don't know what else Kibunja has or if he is on the gentleman's case. I just thought that with leaders like this, ukabila has a very promising future in Kenya. I thought it might also elicit similar outrage, if not more, than that "very offending" headline from abeingo.

Termie,

The Abeingo guys were saying exactly the same thing, but couched in sanitized language. Perhaps the guy @ 0.41 has thrown off his kid-gloves.

NJL

[Terminator]

That's debatable but I will not dwell on it. That I had to work to make you acknowledge the gentleman who had taken off his kid gloves and was screaming hate at the top of his lungs, while you had no problem being outraged with statements couched in sanitized language, and hence subject to different interpretations, has not escaped my attention.

That gentleman was filmed by NTV. I don't know what else Kibunja has or if he is on the gentleman's case. I just thought that with leaders like this, ukabila has a very promising future in Kenya. I thought it might also elicit similar outrage, if not more, than that "very offending" headline from abeingo.

Termie,

The Abeingo guys were saying exactly the same thing, but couched in sanitized language. Perhaps the guy @ 0.41 has thrown off his kid-gloves.

NJL